The Missing Piece in Your Connection With Your Horse: A Conversation with Leah Astrup #170

The Missing Piece in Your Connection With Your Horse: A Conversation with Leah Astrup

What if one of the most important things you could do to deepen your connection with your horse has very little to do with trying to change your horse?

In this special episode, I welcome my very first podcast guest, my longtime student, colleague, and friend Leah Astrup. 

Leah is a lifelong horsewoman whose desire to help her own horses led her to study equine bodywork. She later became an Equine Debono Moves Practitioner and Instructor, studied applied neurology through Z-Health, and completed the four-year Feldenkrais® Professional Training Program to become a Certified Feldenkrais Practitioner. (Learn more about Leah and her work at IntegratedMovementllc.com.)

Over the years, Leah and I have both seen again and again how profoundly the human influences the horse.

Sometimes that influence is physical. A rider may unknowingly put more weight through one seat bone, carry unnecessary tension, or organize herself in a way her horse must continually compensate for.

Sometimes it goes deeper.

We bring our stress, expectations, habits, beliefs, and sense of what's possible into our interactions with our horses, often without realizing it.

Leah shares the wonderful story of a busy executive who was convinced something was physically wrong with her horse because he threw his head up when she tried to bridle him. After an Feldenkrais® Awareness Through Movement® lesson, she approached him in a much more relaxed state.

This time, he simply lowered his head for the bridle.

Her realization?

"It was me."

We also talk about the tendency to focus on everything that's "wrong," whether we're looking at ourselves or our horses.

Instead of beginning with a list of problems to fix, what happens when we become curious?

What's already easy?

What feels good?

What does your horse enjoy?

Where is there already a sense of possibility?

This is central to both Feldenkrais® and Debono Moves. Rather than imposing a correction or following a rigid formula, we're creating conditions where the nervous system can discover new options.

As Leah and I discuss, we're asking questions with our hands.

And the answer may not be what we expect.

That means listening, noticing, adapting, and sometimes working somewhere entirely different from where the apparent problem is.

Ultimately, our conversation comes back to connection.

We hear so much about developing a deeper connection with our horses. But Leah poses an important question: Are you actually connected to yourself?

Learning to listen to ourselves, to sense ourselves more clearly, and to recognize our own needs and possibilities can change much more than our movement.

It can change what we bring to our horses.

Key Takeaways

•  Your horse experiences all of you. Your balance, breathing, tension, attention, expectations, and emotional state can all influence your interaction.
•  You can't change what you don't know you're doing. Our habitual ways of moving can feel completely normal, even when they're creating unnecessary effort or imbalance.
•  Sometimes changing the human changes the horse. Mary and Leah share striking examples of horses whose movement or behavior changed when their riders discovered new possibilities in themselves.
•  Look for what's working. Rather than focusing exclusively on problems, finding ease and ability gives the nervous system something useful to build upon.
•  Don't assume the apparent problem tells you where to work. A horse with neck discomfort may find a new way of organizing his neck through gentle work elsewhere in his body.
•  Ask rather than impose. "We ask questions with our hands" means staying curious and allowing the horse's response to guide the interaction rather than simply applying a technique.
•  Kindness matters. Feldenkrais gives us permission to do less, stop pushing, and listen to ourselves. That can influence the expectations we bring to our horses as well.
•  Connection starts with yourself. Developing greater awareness and a stronger sense of inner authority can help you bring more of yourself to the relationship you have with your horse.

When we stop trying so hard to correct ourselves and our horses, we may discover something much more interesting: new possibilities for both of us.

Learn more about Leah and her work at  IntegratedMovementllc.com.

Resources:

💥Learn how the Feldenkrais MethodⓇ can help improve your seat, position, and balance on your horse! Free rider videos masterclass: https://www.marydebono.com/rider 💥

Effortless, Balanced Sitting: A FeldenkraisⓇ Movement Series
Whether you're a rider seeking a balanced, secure seat on your horse, someone who spends long hours at a desk, or someone who wants to move through life with more ease, this innovative program will help you discover a more comfortable, balanced way of sitting.

Grab your FREE video training to help your dog. 🐕 https://www.marydebono.com/lovedog 💥

Get Mary’s bestselling, award-winning book, “Grow Young with Your Dog,” for a super low price at: https://tinyurl.com/growyoungwithyourdog. Demonstration videos are included at no extra cost. ⬅️⬅️⬅️

All information is for general educational purposes ONLY and does not constitute medical, veterinary, or training advice. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider if you, your horse, or dog are unwell or injured.  Always use caution when interacting with horses and dogs.

About the Host:

Mary Debono is a pioneer in animal and human wellness, blending her expertise as an international clinician, best-selling author, and certified Feldenkrais Method® practitioner. With over three decades of experience, Mary developed Debono Moves, a groundbreaking approach that enhances the performance, well-being, and partnership of animals and their humans.

Mary's innovative approach draws from the Feldenkrais Method®, tailored specifically for horse and dog enthusiasts.  Her methods have helped animals and humans:

• Improve athletic ability and performance
• Enhance confidence and reduce anxiety
• Reduce physical limitations and discomfort
• Deepen the human-animal bond

Mary's flagship online programs, "Move with Your Horse" and "Easier Movement, Happier Dogs," provide animal enthusiasts with an innovative approach that combines the concepts of Feldenkrais® with her signature hands-on work for horses and dogs (Debono Moves). Through this transformative approach, both people and their animal companions discover greater harmony, ease, and connection.

TRANSCRIPT:

Hello, listeners. I have a surprise for you today. We have our very first guest on our podcast. Her name is Leah Astrup. And I have known Leah for many years. She's a lifelong horsewoman who began studying equine bodywork in order to help her own horse. And then she developed it into a very fulfilling career. She also went on to learn how to help the human part of the horse, human equation.

So she became a student of mine years ago and she eventually earned her certification as an Equine Debono Moves practitioner and instructor. And she went on to study applied neurology with the company Z Health. And then thanks to her incredible curiosity and drive for more knowledge, she went through the four year Feldenkrais professional training program and she's a certified Feldenkrais practitioner. So she brings with her a wealth of knowledge and experience.

So I'm so excited to share what she has to offer with you and let's welcome Leah to the show. So glad you're here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So, Leah, man, you have an incredible background and you know, I taught alongside you and I know you're an incredibly effective and compassionate teacher. And I just going to ask you though, a little bit about how you got started. Like what, what was the motivation to learn equine body work?

So like you mentioned, I was a lifelong horse person, like many people, started riding as a little kid and ended up with a horse. I was about 18, 19 years old and quickly realized I was out of my depth. She was not as advertised, let's put it that way, and suffered a couple of injuries working with her. And it was many years ago, about 35 years ago, discovered Linda Tellington-Jones at that time and learned some of her work trying to help that horse.

At that time. She was, I know, one of the early people kind of talking about how to work with the nervous system. So that kind of got me interested. And then years later had another horse and she developed some health issues and so started studying, thought about the body work again, thought about kind of working in that realm, started doing some, some different methods and then was fortunately introduced to you about 16, 17 years ago.

And yeah, so I quickly, just once I talked to you and I could tell this was gonna be, I thought, a very good fit. So started having you come out to Michigan and do a bunch of clinics and trainings and just never stopped. That's wonderful. Well, it was my lucky break too that we crossed paths, so I appreciate that. And you know, when you first started working with horses, because you like I said, you have learned so much and, and you're a certified Feldenkrais practitioner.

You trained in applied neurology, you're certified there. When you first started this journey though, did you ever imagine that working with the humans would become such an important part of what you offer? No, not in the beginning. I think there's always so much to learn anytime you're learning something. So I was so focused, focused on the horses anatomy and movement and there was just so much to learn there.

But honestly, you were always talking to me about, you know, because I saw you always as a Feldenkrais practitioner working with the riders, which I admired so much. And I loved that in our trainings for working with the horses, you know, we would get on the floor and we were doing awareness through movement lessons as the riders, as the humans. So I knew it was important. I just didn't think I at that point had the capacity maybe to take on also learn, you know, working with people.

And even though you were always encouraging me to do that, you know, so, yeah, it was just finally, years later that circumstances just developed where I realized, okay, maybe I really need to, you know, what could I do? What could I do with riders? Never dreaming at that point that I would actually have the opportunity to start, you know, a Feldenkrais program, four year program. So that's where I kind of started studying some other things, still thinking about working with the writer and then the opportunity opened to actually get into the Fallen Christ program.

So, yeah, that was so wonderful. And the world is a better place because of all your education and your willingness and generosity in sharing it through your teaching. And you know, I always think back to like it is. So as you, as you know and as you expressed, it's so critical for us to work with the human as well as the horse. And you know, really in many ways putting more emphasis on the human is very, very helpful, I found.

And you know, I always talk about that horse, human system, right, that we're not like when a human is with a horse, their such that they resonate with each other. In other words, they pick up things from each other. You know, horses know how we're breathing, how we're moving, how we're directing our attention and that all shapes our interaction with them. And so I love how you've done so much work with the humans.

And you know, a lot of my audience is familiar with Feldenkrais because I talk about it all the time. I talk about awareness through movement all the time, all that good stuff. But could you tell us a little bit about applied neurology? Yeah. And how you use that? Yeah. So, you know, simply put, it's. It's the study and understanding of the brain and the nervous system in terms of how it relates to movement.

So I always am very clear. I. I'm not a doctor, I'm not a neurologist. That's not what it is. But it's understanding on a deeper level those systems and directly how they relate to movement, so how we improve movement. And it really, to me, it still really resonates with Feldenkrais. So you probably shared that quote of Moshe's many times with your listeners. But, you know, when he would say he wasn't interested in flexible bodies, he was interested in flexible minds.

And that quote has a lot of implications, really how you could take it. But it's the same with applied neurology is that understanding that the muscles, the bones, the tissues are really going to respond to how the brain and the nervous system are functioning. So a lot of body work, techniques, there's focus on the tissue and whatever, and not that that's not important by any means, but it's the understanding that at these higher levels, the brain is really what's controlling posture, movement, our balance, you know, so much of that.

So that's where that kind of focus lies. That's wonderful. That's wonderful. It seems like it's such a nice compliment. You know, like you said, it works very well with the Feldenkrais method. So that's. That's really awesome. And, you know, I. You know, just so our listeners even have a better understanding, I'm. I'll share a couple of examples, and maybe you can think of an example or two that you want to share about horses that were helped when we put the focus on the human first.

Absolutely. And. And you know what, Leah? Guess which one comes to mind right away. It's one where you and I were together in Michigan during a clinic with that young girl. I think she was only around 15 or something. Maybe a teenage girl. She. And she had a lovely horse, who I think it was. She had. She supposedly wasn't picking up his right canter lead, if I remember correctly.

And we watched them canter. And then I invited her to dismount and I led her through a short Feldenkrais lesson. Remember sitting in the chair? Yeah. I can't remember if it was a chair or a hay bale we used, but it was something where she sat and just that idea of helping her learn how to weight her seat bones differently and to be more balanced because like many of us, she developed a habit of using one side of herself differently than the other, which shifted her weight over.

She wasn't aware of it because it was a habit, but her horse had to compensate for that. And that is probably the most common thing that I see across the board with people is that type of a habit. And then, if you remember, she got back on her horse and her horse immediately picked up the right lead. So was such a dramatic example because she. She learned. She improved so quick, quickly.

It was just so fun. So fun. Yeah. And then. Yeah, so that was. There was another one I'm thinking of too, right off the bat, that the woman, she had a grand prix horse, dressage horse, international type, competition horse, and he constantly had a sore, tight back. And then I suggested nicely to her, I think actually her trainer also kind of pushed her in my direction. And we just.

I saw from just watching her that she had an incredibly sore and tight back. And I didn't make significant lasting progress with the horse until she came to me for Feldenkrais sessions. And then they both just blossomed and lost that tension in their back, and they were just so much happier and could perform better athletically as well. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I mean, I saw, you know, I witnessed so much, obviously working with you over the years and seeing the changes with.

With riders and stuff happening. And, you know, I think we know that I think anymore, you know, you hear so much about that now, like working with the human and what we bring to the horses, like, people. I think there's more of an understanding around that than there ever used to be. Yes. But I'm still amazed. Sometimes working was on something that you wouldn't, you wouldn't imagine is related.

And all of a sudden you help the person with it and the horse just goes, oh, yeah. Like, it was never the horse's issue. They were responding to what the rider was doing, even though the rider had no idea they were doing it. Exactly. And that's so good. Yeah. And with Feldenkrais, I think that's really one of the gifts to me of Feldenkrais, because, you know, we talk about body awareness like that.

That's talked about a lot, but, you know, even deeper. So Moshe would talk about, like, the self image, and I would read that when he would talk about it, and I was like, yeah, that's interesting. What's the difference? But, you know, now in, in modern, like movement science and stuff, they refer to it as the body schema. And that idea that there's this deep, very non conscious part of ourselves.

And so it's much deeper even than I think of with body awareness in a way and that we just don't realize what we're not aware of. I know, it sounds so basic. No, right? No. We don't know what we don't know. We don't know what we don't know. Like you said so many times, seeing a rider who goes, yeah, I think my seat bones feel pretty balanced. And then we'll go to do a little ATM and sitting and it's like, oh, not balanced at all.

Very different side to side. And they had no idea or they think, yeah, I'm heavier on my right seat bone. And then we go to do an ATM and nope, actually they're way heavier on their left seat bone. So here they're trying to correct something that they think they feel and it's not even what's really happening. So now they're working harder at something that's actually making the whole issue worse.

It's just, it's really, it's really fascinating. So, like you, I've had a number of stories now just of seeing riders that as they work on themselves, the horse, I mean, one horse that really looked quite lame when they started to ride. And just by the end of a half hour, working on the rider's seat bones and balance, the horse was stepping under itself. Oh my goodness. Yes. You know, so as a body worker, like, I would never talk myself out of work.

I think horses need work on their body like we do. Sure. But I've just been amazed to see how many times as we work with the rider, the horse actually comes very sound. Yes. And I, I'm so, I'm so appreciative that you expressed it so beautifully, Leah. Because this whole idea, it's like we, we don't know that we're waiting the other one, we, you know, the other seat bone, for example.

And to me, and when you mentioned about Moshe's version of awareness was very different than like the. What we call body awareness in our culture. And one of the things that I think is. Makes such a profound difference when we do awareness through movement or functional integration, which is the private. For those listening, it's the private one on one sessions of Feldenkrais is that your image expands in such a way that there's more possibilities and it just happens.

It just, it's not that you have to, you know, write in your journal what's pot. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's sort of like, just happens because you've changed on the level of your nervous system, and people will be more creative. They find, like, they'll. They'll start doing things differently. And I think Moshe Feldenkrais was on man. He gave us such a gift that I'm eternally grateful to him for it.

Because of that, you know, in my. In my own journey, I left a big corporate career, and before I did Feldenkrais, I don't think I would have ever conceived that that was possible. To do that. Yeah, to dedicate my life to working with animals and their people. Like, it just didn't seem possible. So that, to me, brings it to a whole other level. Because when we think about body awareness, a lot of people just think, oh, I have.

I know where my hips are or, you know, my hip joints are. I know how to move this leg. I have, like, more awareness. But it's so much deeper than that, what we do. It's so much deeper. What people can learn through the Feldenkrais method. Yeah, it's just, you know, and even our. Again, our version of what's possible, changes. In my experience, I've seen that not just with me, but with many, many clients over the years.

And also just like, our expectations can change. So think about that in relation, Leah, to the horses and riders you've worked with, their movement, their tension, their awareness or lack thereof, their expectations, and, like, how the work that we do can influence that in a positive way. Yeah, I think that's the other side of. Of all that work, too. So you have the pure. You know, if you want to think of it as like, biomechanics or whatever, like, okay, I can move my body with more ease.

Wonderful. That's amazing, right? It helps our horses. But some of the other, even to me, almost even bigger takeaways from the work. One is the idea of possibilities. So coming in with so many, like, bodywork, modalities, there's this focus on all the things that are wrong. And again, not that we don't look at, of course. If there's an injury, there's a diagnosis. I mean, of course we're aware of that.

But I think with Feldenkrais, there was always this underlying just hope and possibility of change if it's given the opportunity. And so I always took that away from you so much. You would come out and you would see a horse, and you always saw all the potential and possibility. So that was always really inspiring to see. You'd have three other bodyworkers that came and saw this horse and it was just the list of things that was wrong.

And you would come out and you just see the list of things that were great and where the possibility exists. Existed. And not that you were unrealistic about what, you know, where the horse needed help, but the, the possibility for change. That was just the optimism, I think. Was it Ruthie Alanis? Ruthie. Biological optimism, One of my favorite phrase terms. Yeah, absolutely. So I think that piece is huge.

Just how we look at when we see things. Do we see all the things that are quote unquote wrong or do we see all the potential and the possibility? And then the other piece is just that. I remember someone, this was years ago, super nice woman, really took great care of her horses. But like a lot of people, she had a very high pressure job. She was an executive and she would come out, run out to the bar at the end of the day to try and work her horse.

And, you know, she was a dressage rider and she had a lot of goals for her and her horse. And I was coming to do a rider workshop and she said, oh, at the end of the workshop, would you mind looking at him? I think there's something wrong with his pole. And I said, oh, okay. Well, what do you think is going on? She said, well, I don't know, but when I go to put the bridle on, he throws his head up.

And I think he's sensitive there. And I said, okay, yeah, I'm happy to take a look. So we did the rider portion, we worked with them, and we finished it with an atm, an awareness through movement lesson. Everyone got up super relaxed. As you tend to after those lessons, your nervous system is just in a very different place. And she was going to get her horse to get him tacked up.

She comes back in the barn later with him and she goes, never mind, he's fine. She goes. She goes, it was me. She goes, I've never been that relaxed tacking him up. And she goes, he just dropped his head to put the bridal on. And she goes, I've just realized, I come out, you know, she'd come out stressed, anxious, in a hurry. So by the time the last thing was putting that bridal on, he was just over it.

Right? He throws something. Yes. So she just kind of laughed because she goes, oh, it's me, it's me. She's like, I. I just, you know. So that kind of thing really struck me too. Yes, That's a perfect example. Like that is. That is a beautiful example of that, Leah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And I think one other thing that. Because this strikes me a lot, too. And for those who don't know, but in awareness through movement and functional integration, there is this emphasis on.

I don't know. Would you say, Mary, being kind to yourself? I don't know if that's. Absolutely. Absolutely. But not pushing. You know, so much of this Western world especially is pushing, pushing with exercise. Push, push, push. Not that there's never a place for pushing, but in this work, it's not. It's about, you know, doing less so you can feel more. Right. And the other thing I found that this work really gives to the human that then they can take to their horse is that they have permission.

Yes. Inner authority. Yes. Yes. And I mean, I'm sure you've experienced this many times, but had people really kind of break down in tears and they go, you know, this is the first time I've been given permission to not have to work so hard at everything. And, like, they took that to their horse. Like, maybe you could be a little kinder. Right. With your expectations of your horse.

But if you can't be kind to yourself. Right. How do we ever take that to our animals, really? So that's another thing I think is a real gift. Yeah. Let. Let's talk about this for another bit, because this is really important. Leah, I'm so glad you brought that up. So, you know, this idea that we have agency, that we have the ability to decide for ourselves, and. And it seems ridiculous because we're humans, we go to work, we have job.

Right. We have. Of course we do. No, we don't. Because we have so many things that we've been indoctrinated to listen to this person or that person or these expectations that have been thrust upon us, maybe as children or whoever. And like you, I've worked with clients who felt so much pressure in their everyday life, and then they take that. Talk about unnecessary strain and stress, they take that to the barn and then their horse because they have an agenda.

Well, this is what I do for fun. So I need to do this, this, and this, and my horse needs to be at a certain level and blah, blah, blah. And they have these huge expectations and they pull, push and push, and to be honest, nobody's happy. I had one woman that when she started working with me, she was so transformed because she said, I never like to show.

It stresses me out. But I feel so much pressure because in My barn, everyone with this trainer, we show and I have a nice horse and people say I owe it to my horse to show. Yeah. And so, you know, they were using the whips and the spurs and I helped her see that that was not the only path. And that wasn't a path that made her feel good.

Certainly didn't make her horse feel good either. So they stepped off that path and she was so much more joyful in her life and her horse was way happier too. And we do so many things out of habit. Just like we have these movement habits. We talk about that all the time in Feldenkrais. Right. That we have these habits of moving. And that's why it's so important to do, to have that kindness to ourselves.

Because when we feel what something like a movement can be, easy, then we can generalize that sense of ease to our whole nervous system and it doesn't have to stay on the mat. In other words, we can take that into our life, into our work with our horses, into our, into everything we do. So I love that you brought that up, Leah. I think that's a huge, huge, huge part of how Feldenkrais helps us so much.

Yeah, I agree. Gives us that permission. That's exactly right. The right word. We get permission to have basically more say in our lives and the lives of our animals and not, not be burdened by this. And Moshe, boy did he, he wrote about that, he spoke about that Moshe Feldenkrais, for those wondering who Moshe is. Moshe Feldenkrais, the creator of the Feldenkrais method. Yeah. So amazing. And then the other thing Lee and I know this is big in your work as well, is when we can change our self image, right.

Through doing Feldenkrais awareness through movement or functional integration. It often helps people even reduce their anxiety. So much like you mentioned about that woman then approaching her horse. And some of it has to do with the ability to use our teleceptors, you know, like our, our eyes, our ears. Right. Our sense of balance more easily. So we feel safer literally in the world. And the beautiful thing is, and your work always reflects this, is that the horses do too.

When we do this, we help the horses through our hands on work as well. So they oftentimes a spooky horse won't be so spooky because they now don't feel as vulnerable. So I'm sure you've seen that as well, Leah, like the change in the. Well, you mentioned, like that woman. But that, that ability to, to like literally see the world differently. To experience it differently. Yeah, yeah. And I was thinking that, you know, this idea, again, for people who aren't as familiar with Feldenkrais, that it's very different in the sense that there's not this compulsion to fix something, right?

Yes. I see something that's wrong and I'm going to fix it. And it's very easy in any kind of quote, unquote, body work modality to get into that mindset that we're going to treat something, we're going to fix something. And obviously there are people who have different qualifications and maybe they can use that wording. I really try and stay away from that wording. And I know you do, too, because that's the other thing is I find if I come out and someone's told me about their horse or themselves, right, all these negative things, these things that are wrong, and then the ocean is, I need to fix it.

And this work has helped so much with getting out of that mindset. And instead. And like you always said, you know, I always learned from you, trying to see what else is possible, so looking for other possibilities and then seeing if that system, whether it's the horse or the person, can then work something out themselves, which quite frankly, is much more powerful for the nervous system. If that being a horse, a human, a dog, can kind of make that change themselves, be shown it, maybe be shown the possibility, but then they go create the change.

The nervous system seems to hold that much more powerfully than if something's always done to it or for it. Yes. I don't know if I'm explaining that clearly, but I just think there's something really powerful in that as well that, you know, if you go like I was thinking about this with a horse a long time ago that he had, he did have a lot of, you could say, issues in his neck.

And the owner was very concerned with his neck. And if I went to even put my hands very gently anywhere along his neck, he would start shaking his head like he just didn't want his hands there. So having the training with you and that Feldenkrais training, he thought, well, where else could I go in his body? Where is the open door that I could maybe still help him with his neck, but somewhere that he felt safe.

So again, going back to that conditions for learning the nervous system, feeling safe. And we ended up working with his ribs and actually all the way back at his ischium, his ischial tuberosities, his seat bones, and creating a change that allowed him to finally Just drop his own head and neck to the ground and completely. And then I could come up and I could touch his neck and it was like no big deal.

But if I had been fixated on fixing his neck. Yes, yes. I don't think I ever would have gotten there. And so I think. Exactly. And I am. So that's a great example, Leah, because I think that would help clarify for the listeners when you said to you let them discover it on their own. So that's something we talk about in this work. It's, it's a learning modality.

It's not something we're doing to the horse or the human or the dog or whoever we're working with. It's. We're engaging in a conversation as you, you know, and then we're. So we're kind of setting up the conditions for learning and then helping guide them. But they're, as you said, beautifully, they're ultimately doing it. And it reminded me, I was, I was called by the vet to work with this horse who was taken to the hospital because she had such a problem with her neck and she couldn't, you know, lower her head and all kinds of things.

It was, they had done all kinds of work at the hospital with her and different medications and they asked me to work with her and I didn't touch her neck, you know, I didn't touch her neck and I just worked with her ribs and her pelvis, her back, you know, all those other areas. And she on her own, just like as you said, she started moving. And I remember that there was a hospital employee, a vet tech right there when she, and she just kept, she's like shrieked, she said, what did you do?

Like she could now do this. She's been here for days and she couldn't do this. And I said, well, I helped her figure it out. And so that sounds a little vague maybe to people, but we are doing very specific things. Like in the hands on work, what we're doing with the horses or the humans that have the hands on sessions, we are doing things that are very specific.

And that specificity allows the individual, the horse or the human or dog to then figure out how they can let go of unnecessary tension, how they could now move with greater ease. But it is a process of discovery, you know, and the beautiful thing to Leah is, is how we get to be so creative because there's no set protocol for us either. Right. You know, we're, we're on a journey with the, with the individual we're working with.

Right. We're not following a formula like, do this, do this, do this. It's what can we do? And I find that incredibly creative. Yeah, I know. I mean, I heard that from you. For so many years, working with you and then being in the training, we were kind of constantly reminded of that with our trainers as we were working with each other, that you're just. You're looking for that path of ease.

Yes. And you're going to see where that takes you. And I always remember, I would tell you, I always kind of had you in my head because you would constantly tell us that we're asking a question with our hands and that. I just love that, because if I'm in that mindset, like, am I doing something to the horse or person with my hands, or am I asking? And it completely changes just your mindset, your approach, you know, I'm asking, is this possible?

Because the answer might be no. Exactly. And so coming in with the mindset of, I'm gonna do this technique. Yeah. Then that. Just that you could have the most wonderful techniques, and they don't work, or the horse tolerates it, and then you walk away and everything is lost because it didn't mean anything to them. You were just buying a technique. So, to me, that's one of the beautiful things I really appreciate about being able to learn from you for so long, because there's so many bodywork methods out there, and I think there's so many good ones.

There really are. Yes, sure. More and more, we have a wonderful focus on the nervous system and on gentle work, and. Which I love. But I. One of the things I found really unique with working with you and working with the Feldenkrais method is this idea of we're not just applying, we're asking, and every nervous system is going to be unique. And so we've got to kind of keep that mindset always.

Yes. That's lovely. And you reminded me, too, Leah, because we talk about that all the time, that we're asking questions with our hands. It's like, can this move easily? Can you do this easily? Is this possible? And I'm reminded of a clinic we did together in Michigan, and there was this great big gray Irish sport horse, and he was a school horse, and he was a lovely, lovely gentleman.

He was. I understand the little kids would climb all over, you know, just a perfect guy, you know, just. And massive. He was a big guy. And I was showing the clinic participants what we call muscle lifts, you know, with supporting the soft tissue, and it's so Funny, because here's this guy, he's like your bomb proof school horse type. And he, I could tell, I was just doing a little bit and he kind of moved away and happened a couple of times.

And the, the participants said, well, what, what, what's happening? Like what's. And I said, that's what I'm trying to figure out. And so all I did, and I want to emphasize my touch was really light. All I did was shift the angle of my fingers an inch maybe, but I supported him in a slightly different direction and he melted like butter in my hands and they were like, wow.

And I said, see, that's why we're always asking the question. We're never making assumptions, we're never trying to fix. We're saying, you know, is this possible? Can you do this easily? And then we find that pathway of ease. So then I found the pathway of ease. Then he really, you know, he wanted a lot of support. And then we can expand that. Yeah, and that's what's so remarkable.

But yeah. And again, all credit to Dr. Moshe Feldenkrais, who created the Feldenkrais method, which informs so much of my work as well. And, but one thing, you know, when you were saying about how we don't fix, I'm laughing because I cannot tell you how many times I've gone to a new client, a new horse client, and the person hands me a chart, like one of the, you know, a piece of paper with a.

The anatomy of the, you know, an outline of a horse on each side. Usually it's like this skeletal system and there's red marks, red crosses all over it. Yeah, this is what's wrong with the horse on the left side. This is what's wrong with the horse on the right side. And then the person hands me that. And sometimes there's an aerial view kind of illustration. And so there's that marked up as well.

And they're like, well, these are all the things that so and so said are wrong with them. And I just look at that and I go. And sometimes early on, before people understand the kind of work that we do, they'll sometimes ask me, well, do you have like a sheet where you mark up what. What was wrong with them? No, no, but let's talk a little bit more just because I think it's important why it's so important to find that direction of ease and to look for what's working.

So for an example, like I will often when I see a client, instead of them saying what's because Right away, they want to tell me, he doesn't pick up the right lead. He's refusing jumps his, you know, whatever it happens to be. You know, he's stiff. He doesn't like being girth up, whatever it happens to be. But then I will ask them, well, tell me the most. The most favorite thing that the horse.

What's his favorite thing? Because they'll say, oh, he hates doing this. He hates, hates riding in the arena. Tell me what the favorite thing is. Now, I usually laugh and say eating. So I'm like, okay, yeah, that's on my top list too. But besides eating, what are some things that both you and your horse are smiling when you do? And sometimes what happens is. Oh, when we do a long trot down the trail or when we.

Whatever it happens to be. But this also, I feel, shifts the human's focus from what's wrong with my horse to what makes us both happy. And that changes the tenor of the interaction. Yeah. And also, again, it's this idea, like you mentioned, about finding that pathway of ease then we could work into, well, how can we do other things? How can we keep that feeling of ease, of joy, of vitality, and expand it to other things that we want to do together?

You know, and that's so different than looking at a bunch of red marks on a chart and saying, these are all the things that are wrong with my horse. Yeah. It's just a completely different mindset. And the. The fun thing is the horse is, do perform better because they can move more athletically and they're happier. Yeah. So it's. And the human, because you're working with the human, then they're riding so much better.

Yeah. Well, I think, like you said, it kind of plays into how people think and talk about themselves because they do that with themselves as well. Right. They can tell you all the things that are wrong with them, all the things that hurt, all the things that they don't do well in their writing, whatever it might be. And so just kind of switching the focus, like you said, for them and their horse to what feels good?

What can you do? Well, what do you feel good about? You know, and just kind of switching that whole mindset around is just, I think, hugely, hugely important. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And you know, also. And again, I'm going to bring it back to the idea that so many of us, just as human beings, we. We carry a lot of. We hold a lot of tension. Like, a lot of times it's maybe it's anxiety about something.

Right. And I've worked with, and I know you have as well, a lot of fearful writers, writers who've lost confidence, maybe some writers who were never really confident to begin with. And you can probably speak to this very well, Leah. The idea that, again, we briefly mentioned it earlier, that when you help a person feel more secure in their, in their physical body, it also helps them feel, even without trying to, they just feel more confident in life because now, for example, they can sit in a more secure way on their horse.

So if their horse makes a sudden movement, you know, a spirit spook or something, they're less likely to be disturbed by that. Same thing with, you know, improving the movement of, of the head and neck. Right. Helps them see their surroundings better. So they just. The nervous system automatically feels safer when it can do those things. So. Yeah, so. Absolutely. And I know that's been a focus of your work as well, is helping them really get over some, some of that, you know, the thing, the, the emotional parts that are holding them back.

But we do it through this other way. Right through helping them feel better in their body as well. So. And when I say body, that's not even. I shouldn't even use that because it's so much, as we said, it's so much more than body. Right. It's not. There is no separation, the whole body, mind thing, as we know. So it's the self. The self as, as we would say in Feldenkrais, it's really the self.

Yeah, yeah. And you're right. And I think it's a. It's something that we've known, like, we've talked about for a long time, this like mind, body connection, but yet we still tend to separate. Right. Like, oh, I have a problem. I have pain in my hip when I ride. So I'm going to go see my physical therapist. And I also have some anxiety around it. So I'm going to go talk to maybe a sport coach or a psychologist, which, by the way, are all good things.

Absolutely. Done. Absolutely. But, yeah, the idea that. And we'll see this, you know, we see it in Feldenkrais, I see it in the applied neurology where people give me a list of body things that don't work well. And all of a sudden we, we do some work with their visual system or we do some work in atm and all of a sudden that's working great. They don't have any pain and there's nothing really wrong.

They've convinced themselves there's something really wrong there, you know, And Again, they have all this diagnoses around this thing and then all of a sudden it's just gone and it's like, well, you know, I'm not going to tell you any. I'm not a doctor, so I'm not here to get into that. But it's interesting that we did this little thing that seemed relatively simple and now that's, you know, you're not experiencing that anymore, so maybe it's.

It wasn't what you thought it was. Is that possible? Right, Just. Again, yes. Again, yes. Coming back to that beautiful idea. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And I, I think that is such a. That might be a very nice way to close out the. Our conversation, actually. This idea that you're just helping people and their horses expand their possibilities in these beautiful, kind, compassionate ways. Yeah. You know, which I think, you know, it's so lovely to bring that energy, Leah, into the world.

Like this idea that we can be kind to ourselves and we can be kind to our horses and to. And to everyone. It just, it really does change how a person experiences their own life and influences the. Those around them. Animal and, and, and, you know, human. So that's such a beautiful thing. On that note, I just wanted to say because I know we, you and I have talked about this a lot, but just we, we hear so much everywhere now, which again, I think overall is a good thing that we see so much of talking about connection with our horses.

But I, you know, doing all this work with the human now for these last so many years, really, I have to ask the question of people. Are you actually connected to yourself? Because how can I be expected? And horses are so sensitive. We know that they're so sensitive and they are very connected for the most part. When they're able to live their normal horsey life, they're. They're so intuitive and they're so connected.

But people want connection with their horse, but they haven't taken the time to actually connect to themselves and how can we do that? So for me, these methods are such beautiful ways to actually start to listen. Listen to your own body, your own nervous system, understand yourself better so that then I can bring a more whole person to this horse that I love so much and I'd like to connect with.

So, you know, I just, I. What I'd hope for people is that they would feel like they are also deserving of that time to work on themselves, to work with themselves so that they can bring this better version of themselves to this horse that they would like to connect with. So, so that is such, such beautiful words. Leah. You said that so wonderfully because that is, it's like in, in the work that I teach, you know, the Jibono moves work, I have a framework, you know, like a Venn diagram.

And I talk about how we have to connect with ourselves first, then we can connect with our horses and then we go through the rest of the thing. But it's so, it's really less common. In other words, people don't even know what that means. And that's why I think again, I'm going to bring this back to the work that we're teaching here, the Feldenkrais method. It's so powerful because it really does allow you to connect with yourself in such a wonderful way that I'm so glad you brought that up and you expressed it so eloquently because it is all about, then you can bring your, your whole self to the interaction with your horse and you might find, as you mentioned earlier, you might find that your, your so called goals are different.

Right? Like, like what you, what you insist on doing with your horse might be completely different. You might probably will find more joy in your life and more vitality and just more, more of the good stuff. More of the good stuff. More of what makes us human and allows us then to share that with non human animals. I mean it's, we're so blessed. So I have to say Leah, I could not be happier as having my first guest be you.

And I'm just so grateful for all the beauty, the, you know, the knowledge you bring to the world and just amazing. And so where can people find out more about you? I know you're based in Michigan and you do some traveling and you're online. Yeah. So I, I have a website, integrated movement llc.com and I have a lot of information there. People can read more about the modalities and what I do and what I offer.

I do work over Zoom. I have clients I work with around the country over Zoom. I basically say if you speak English, I can work with you. I don't speak any other languages unfortunately. But, and then so in person, people who live, you know, in Michigan, I have an office. I do see people in person and then I do a limited amount of travel out of state as well.

If there's interest with groups of people, I'm willing to do some travel as well to teach workshops. You. That's wonderful. Wonderful. So everyone check out integrated movement llc.com and I will have a link in the show notes. So if you, if you're driving your car. Don't write it down. Don't worry, It'll be in the show notes. So you'll. You'll learn how to get in touch with Leah and please check out what she offers.

So, Leah, thank you so, so much. This was such a pleasure and an honor to have you on the show. Thank you. Thank you. I look forward to talking to you again soon. Thank you, Mary. Thank you. Thank you so much, everyone. Okay, bye. Bye.